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	<title>Comments on: Hiroshima at 67: The Line We Crossed</title>
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	<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/</link>
	<description>The Nuclear Secrecy Blog</description>
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		<title>By: A Day Too Late &#124; Restricted Data</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-18233</link>
		<dc:creator>A Day Too Late &#124; Restricted Data</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-18233</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] indeed destroyed, famously so. Whether they warned of destruction by firebombing or atomic bombing strikes me as somewhat of a distinction without a difference. Either way, it&#8217;s destruction of entire [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] indeed destroyed, famously so. Whether they warned of destruction by firebombing or atomic bombing strikes me as somewhat of a distinction without a difference. Either way, it&#8217;s destruction of entire [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus J. Ranum</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-13196</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus J. Ranum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2012 00:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-13196</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For a beautiful and well-argued book on the topic, I highly recommend philosopher A.C. Grayling&#039;s &quot;Among the Dead Cities&quot;

His conclusions are similar to yours. But then, I think anyone cannot argue otherwise unless they want to adopt a position that&#039;s basically nihilism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a beautiful and well-argued book on the topic, I highly recommend philosopher A.C. Grayling&#8217;s &#8220;Among the Dead Cities&#8221;</p>
<p>His conclusions are similar to yours. But then, I think anyone cannot argue otherwise unless they want to adopt a position that&#8217;s basically nihilism.</p>
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		<title>By: One year of Restricted Data &#124; Restricted Data</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-11705</link>
		<dc:creator>One year of Restricted Data &#124; Restricted Data</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 16:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-11705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Hiroshima at 67: The Line We Crossed (8/6/2012) – 3,800 pageviews [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hiroshima at 67: The Line We Crossed (8/6/2012) – 3,800 pageviews [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Who knew about radiation sickness, and when? &#124; Restricted Data</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-11294</link>
		<dc:creator>Who knew about radiation sickness, and when? &#124; Restricted Data</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 12:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-11294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] distinguish them from &#8220;traditional&#8221; incendiary raids — i.e., the firebombing that had already been going on for quite some time before the Second World War went nuclear. (I personally don&#8217;t think they do, from an ethical [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] distinguish them from &#8220;traditional&#8221; incendiary raids — i.e., the firebombing that had already been going on for quite some time before the Second World War went nuclear. (I personally don&#8217;t think they do, from an ethical [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Spruce</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-10073</link>
		<dc:creator>Spruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-10073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The reason why strategic bombing came later in Pacific was very pragmatic: distances. It&#039;s very easy to forget how wast the distances in Pacific are compared to Europe. Prior to entry of B-29s, Allies did not have bombers that could reach Japan from bases they had. And with most of the area being fought over being very sparse infrastructure, there were few targets outside Home Island worth startegic bombing. It&#039;s not so much that the Allies chose not to bomb Japan prior to when the bombings started, but that they were unable to do so earlier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why strategic bombing came later in Pacific was very pragmatic: distances. It&#8217;s very easy to forget how wast the distances in Pacific are compared to Europe. Prior to entry of B-29s, Allies did not have bombers that could reach Japan from bases they had. And with most of the area being fought over being very sparse infrastructure, there were few targets outside Home Island worth startegic bombing. It&#8217;s not so much that the Allies chose not to bomb Japan prior to when the bombings started, but that they were unable to do so earlier.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan Roy</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-9686</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan Roy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-9686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve thought about this a lot, Alex. That the atomic bomb was not the schism in history that we now know it to be; at the time, it was just a more efficient way of doing what we were already doing, risking only a handful of American lives (one plane, small crew, one bomb) instead of vast numbers of American fliers, crew members, etc. etc. This is reflected in the newspapers you gathered, the way they treated the news of the &quot;atomizer,&quot; a phrase I hadn&#039;t yet heard. Again, thanks for sharing a great piece.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve thought about this a lot, Alex. That the atomic bomb was not the schism in history that we now know it to be; at the time, it was just a more efficient way of doing what we were already doing, risking only a handful of American lives (one plane, small crew, one bomb) instead of vast numbers of American fliers, crew members, etc. etc. This is reflected in the newspapers you gathered, the way they treated the news of the &#8220;atomizer,&#8221; a phrase I hadn&#8217;t yet heard. Again, thanks for sharing a great piece.</p>
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		<title>By: Nuclear Tan</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-9611</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuclear Tan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2012 04:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-9611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recently read &quot;The Myths of August&quot; by Stewart Udall and he touches on the origins of &quot;total war&quot; and terror bombing and how they paved the way for atomic attacks Germany&#039;s decision to ignore the rules of war was a ready made excuse for the English bombing of civilian targets in Germany.  According to Udall the US entered the war in Europe with a precision strategic bombing ethic that rarely violated what Gen. George Marshall called the &quot;historic American policy of avoiding terror bombing&quot;.  It wasn&#039;t until near the end of the war that the USAAF began participating in European terror bombing campaigns like Dresden. In the Pacific theater ethical bombing was abandoned in 1944 Udall points to racism and revenge as a possible cause citing the fact Japanese Americans were interred during the war while German and Italian Americans were not. The sneak attack at Pearl Harbor and the heartless methods of war employed by the Japanese also worked to harden US attitudes towards Japan.  Firebombing a large number of Japanese civilian targets would certainly make it easier to justify later atomic attacks, after all isn&#039;t this the justification we use today &quot;fire is fire&quot;. How would the world view the US if we just dropped two A-bombs out of the blue without a fiery prelude that dwarfed their effect? Another thing to consider is The USAAF did as much destruction in 180 days of firebombing Japan as Bomber Harris had accomplished in three years in Europe. Was that done to put future atomic blasts in the proper perspective? The difference I see between a conventional firebombing and an A-bombing is the ease of execution the worst Tokyo firestorm required a 300+ aircraft raid Hiroshima and Nagasaki only required one. 

Udall named three top military commanders who were totally against using the bomb on civilians these men were convinced Japan was already beaten and they were in a position to know. Gen. Dwight Eisenhower told Secretary of War Stimson Japan was defeated and this feeling was shared by Gen. Douglas McArthur both of these men knew the Japanese were cut off from the raw materials needed to conduct war.  Admiral William Leahy felt the use of atomic weapons against Japanese civilians would violate every Christian ethic and all known laws of war.  Eisenhower also pointed out that shocking the world with atomic strikes might spark a future arms race but these concerns were brushed aside by civilian decision makers.  

On pg 49 in &quot;the Angry Genie: One Mans Walk Through The Nuclear Age&quot; By Karl. Z Morgan (father of Health Physics)  he contends Hiroshima was a diplomatic master card in future relations with the Soviet Union and Nagasaki was just a comparative field test of two different weapon designs. The botched bombing of Nagasaki made comparison impossible so another bombing was planned but Truman put a stop to a third bombing against Tokyo on August 10 because the thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too terrible to contemplate.

Personally I find the idea that the two atom strikes were part &quot;live&quot; test and part demonstration to the Russians in Manchuria is fairly plausible.  It is obvious the US looked the other way at the end of the war to acquire Nazi scientist and the gruesome results of Japan&#039;s Unit 731 in Manchuria I don&#039;t think it is too much of a stretch to think they&#039;d see Japan as a valid test subject for atomic strikes. The US had a list of Japanese cities that were spared attack in order to have pristine targets and the ABCC studied the results to set future radiation safety standards.  I&#039;d like to see the target list that was spared in Germany. If we had been ready in time I don&#039;t think we would have had moral qualms against A-bombing Germany I just don&#039;t think they presented the same pure targeting opportunity we found in Japan. 

As for a lack of understanding about fallout I think we knew more than we officially let on the men who designed the bombs knew full well only a small fraction of the fuel would be consumed and that fraction would create a whole host of daughter products.  According to &quot;Day of Trinity&quot; by Lansing Lamont The path of fallout was closely traced after the Trinity test and by three o-clock in the afternoon, the readings on the radiation counters monitored by Alvin Graves and his wife, Elizabeth, observers assigned to the little town of Carrizozo some 40 miles just slightly north of east from the test site, started to climb rapidly. By 4:20 P.M., eleven hours after the explosion, the counters shot off scale and Alvin Graves called Dr. Stafford Warren, the chief medical officer in charge of radiation monitoring. As Lamont put it, the fate of the little town hung in the balance while the scientists and Army officers decided whether or not to evacuate it. Ultimately, they held off, and within an hour the fallout readings had dropped. Lamont reported that these were difficult hours for Dr. Warren and the officer in charge of the entire project, General Leslie R. Groves. &quot;The medical dangers were most immediate of all,&quot; Lamont wrote, &quot;but, in addition, both men knew that the Army was not too eager to pursue too diligently the possibilities of widespread fallout.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently read &#8220;The Myths of August&#8221; by Stewart Udall and he touches on the origins of &#8220;total war&#8221; and terror bombing and how they paved the way for atomic attacks Germany&#8217;s decision to ignore the rules of war was a ready made excuse for the English bombing of civilian targets in Germany.  According to Udall the US entered the war in Europe with a precision strategic bombing ethic that rarely violated what Gen. George Marshall called the &#8220;historic American policy of avoiding terror bombing&#8221;.  It wasn&#8217;t until near the end of the war that the USAAF began participating in European terror bombing campaigns like Dresden. In the Pacific theater ethical bombing was abandoned in 1944 Udall points to racism and revenge as a possible cause citing the fact Japanese Americans were interred during the war while German and Italian Americans were not. The sneak attack at Pearl Harbor and the heartless methods of war employed by the Japanese also worked to harden US attitudes towards Japan.  Firebombing a large number of Japanese civilian targets would certainly make it easier to justify later atomic attacks, after all isn&#8217;t this the justification we use today &#8220;fire is fire&#8221;. How would the world view the US if we just dropped two A-bombs out of the blue without a fiery prelude that dwarfed their effect? Another thing to consider is The USAAF did as much destruction in 180 days of firebombing Japan as Bomber Harris had accomplished in three years in Europe. Was that done to put future atomic blasts in the proper perspective? The difference I see between a conventional firebombing and an A-bombing is the ease of execution the worst Tokyo firestorm required a 300+ aircraft raid Hiroshima and Nagasaki only required one. </p>
<p>Udall named three top military commanders who were totally against using the bomb on civilians these men were convinced Japan was already beaten and they were in a position to know. Gen. Dwight Eisenhower told Secretary of War Stimson Japan was defeated and this feeling was shared by Gen. Douglas McArthur both of these men knew the Japanese were cut off from the raw materials needed to conduct war.  Admiral William Leahy felt the use of atomic weapons against Japanese civilians would violate every Christian ethic and all known laws of war.  Eisenhower also pointed out that shocking the world with atomic strikes might spark a future arms race but these concerns were brushed aside by civilian decision makers.  </p>
<p>On pg 49 in &#8220;the Angry Genie: One Mans Walk Through The Nuclear Age&#8221; By Karl. Z Morgan (father of Health Physics)  he contends Hiroshima was a diplomatic master card in future relations with the Soviet Union and Nagasaki was just a comparative field test of two different weapon designs. The botched bombing of Nagasaki made comparison impossible so another bombing was planned but Truman put a stop to a third bombing against Tokyo on August 10 because the thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too terrible to contemplate.</p>
<p>Personally I find the idea that the two atom strikes were part &#8220;live&#8221; test and part demonstration to the Russians in Manchuria is fairly plausible.  It is obvious the US looked the other way at the end of the war to acquire Nazi scientist and the gruesome results of Japan&#8217;s Unit 731 in Manchuria I don&#8217;t think it is too much of a stretch to think they&#8217;d see Japan as a valid test subject for atomic strikes. The US had a list of Japanese cities that were spared attack in order to have pristine targets and the ABCC studied the results to set future radiation safety standards.  I&#8217;d like to see the target list that was spared in Germany. If we had been ready in time I don&#8217;t think we would have had moral qualms against A-bombing Germany I just don&#8217;t think they presented the same pure targeting opportunity we found in Japan. </p>
<p>As for a lack of understanding about fallout I think we knew more than we officially let on the men who designed the bombs knew full well only a small fraction of the fuel would be consumed and that fraction would create a whole host of daughter products.  According to &#8220;Day of Trinity&#8221; by Lansing Lamont The path of fallout was closely traced after the Trinity test and by three o-clock in the afternoon, the readings on the radiation counters monitored by Alvin Graves and his wife, Elizabeth, observers assigned to the little town of Carrizozo some 40 miles just slightly north of east from the test site, started to climb rapidly. By 4:20 P.M., eleven hours after the explosion, the counters shot off scale and Alvin Graves called Dr. Stafford Warren, the chief medical officer in charge of radiation monitoring. As Lamont put it, the fate of the little town hung in the balance while the scientists and Army officers decided whether or not to evacuate it. Ultimately, they held off, and within an hour the fallout readings had dropped. Lamont reported that these were difficult hours for Dr. Warren and the officer in charge of the entire project, General Leslie R. Groves. &#8220;The medical dangers were most immediate of all,&#8221; Lamont wrote, &#8220;but, in addition, both men knew that the Army was not too eager to pursue too diligently the possibilities of widespread fallout.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Wellerstein</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-9593</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Wellerstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-9593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As with all counter-factuals, one cannot know what could have been, because there was only what was. It is easy in retrospect to proclaim that a given measure would have produced no results, but is on no surer footing that claiming the contrary. The &quot;modified surrender&quot; counterfactual has been battled around by historians for decades; I don&#039;t see any obvious resolution to it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As with all counter-factuals, one cannot know what could have been, because there was only what was. It is easy in retrospect to proclaim that a given measure would have produced no results, but is on no surer footing that claiming the contrary. The &#8220;modified surrender&#8221; counterfactual has been battled around by historians for decades; I don&#8217;t see any obvious resolution to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike from Ottawa</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-9592</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike from Ottawa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-9592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The idea that merely offering to allow the Emperor to remain as a figurehead would have swayed the Japanese does not stand up to the actual information available on the Japanese surrender.  Decrypted Japanese diplomatic signals make clear that right up until the decision to surrender (when 3 of 6 members of the war cabinet were prepared to continue the war AFTER two atomic bombings and the Soviet entry into the war) the Japanese were not even contemplating such terms.  They were intent, even the &#039;peace&#039; party, on retaining not only the Emperor but the system of government that had produced the militarisitic Japan, on remaining unoccupied and on vacating their overseas conquests on their own timetable (leaving European colonies only as they gained independence).  There were strong elements of the Japanese military who felt it would be better for the Japanese to perish rather than to submit and the Japanese military was dominant in the war cabinet (and indeed in Japan).  Evan after it was known to the military that the Emperor himself had decided on surrender, there was a coup attempt that nearly succeeded in preventing the Emperor&#039;s message announcing the decision to surrender from being broadcast (they destroyed one copy but another was smuggled out and broadcast).

With the Japanese attempting to get the Soviets to mediate with the Allies on their behalf, this was laid out in diplomatic signals the Americans were reading at the time.  The Japanese envoy in Moscow was putting forward the idea that retention of the Japanese form of government (not just the Emperor but the system that put the military in charge) as sufficient and this was being rejected by the foreign ministry in its signals giving his instructions and giving no sign such conditions would be sufficient.  That was still the case late in July when the decision was being made.

Try Richard Frank&#039;s &#039;Downfall&#039;, rather than an editorial, for a thorough debunking of the idea that all that was required was an offer to let the Emperor retain his title.  You&#039;ll find no dearth of information there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that merely offering to allow the Emperor to remain as a figurehead would have swayed the Japanese does not stand up to the actual information available on the Japanese surrender.  Decrypted Japanese diplomatic signals make clear that right up until the decision to surrender (when 3 of 6 members of the war cabinet were prepared to continue the war AFTER two atomic bombings and the Soviet entry into the war) the Japanese were not even contemplating such terms.  They were intent, even the &#8216;peace&#8217; party, on retaining not only the Emperor but the system of government that had produced the militarisitic Japan, on remaining unoccupied and on vacating their overseas conquests on their own timetable (leaving European colonies only as they gained independence).  There were strong elements of the Japanese military who felt it would be better for the Japanese to perish rather than to submit and the Japanese military was dominant in the war cabinet (and indeed in Japan).  Evan after it was known to the military that the Emperor himself had decided on surrender, there was a coup attempt that nearly succeeded in preventing the Emperor&#8217;s message announcing the decision to surrender from being broadcast (they destroyed one copy but another was smuggled out and broadcast).</p>
<p>With the Japanese attempting to get the Soviets to mediate with the Allies on their behalf, this was laid out in diplomatic signals the Americans were reading at the time.  The Japanese envoy in Moscow was putting forward the idea that retention of the Japanese form of government (not just the Emperor but the system that put the military in charge) as sufficient and this was being rejected by the foreign ministry in its signals giving his instructions and giving no sign such conditions would be sufficient.  That was still the case late in July when the decision was being made.</p>
<p>Try Richard Frank&#8217;s &#8216;Downfall&#8217;, rather than an editorial, for a thorough debunking of the idea that all that was required was an offer to let the Emperor retain his title.  You&#8217;ll find no dearth of information there.</p>
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		<title>By: The Height of the Bomb &#124; Restricted Data</title>
		<link>http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/2012/08/06/hiroshima-at-67-the-line-we-crossed/#comment-9170</link>
		<dc:creator>The Height of the Bomb &#124; Restricted Data</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 14:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nuclearsecrecy.com/blog/?p=2685#comment-9170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] — especially when they describe the pre-irradiation of firefighters as &#8220;attractive.&#8221; But this is the logic of total war, when you&#8217;ve given up on the idea of a morality of war fighting and decide that the ends — [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] — especially when they describe the pre-irradiation of firefighters as &#8220;attractive.&#8221; But this is the logic of total war, when you&#8217;ve given up on the idea of a morality of war fighting and decide that the ends — [...]</p>
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